President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men (2) in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls (3)--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ (4) of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds (5), in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.(Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.237)There are many points from this we can learn. Lets look at some of them.
What is the message of Ezekial 14? How did it relate to the latter day saints? What does dependence upon the prophet look like? Why was the LDS being compared to the same state of corruption as shown in Ezekial 14?
For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. (D&C 58:28)
[that we] may stand independent above all other creatures (D&C 78:14)Dependence is the opposite of independence. However indepdence can also go to far when its pulls you away from dependence upon God who gives you your daily life (your life literally depends upon Him).
.
All were prophets
I have mentioned this scripture by Moses in Numbers. Lets examine it further.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.First we learn that two people were prophesying without Moses knowing in the camp. Someone complained to moses saying, they speak revelation to the people without "your authority" or "keys". What was Moses response? " Enviest thou for my sake? Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!". Do you see the message he was teaching the people? That Joseph was trying to teach? That we ALL should be prophets, that we ALL should receive revelation, and that we ALL should exhort each other by the spirit of prophecy (revelation). After all D&C 4 was a revelation to the members NOT missionaries, and the only qualification you need to be called is a desire.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! (Numbers 11:27-20)
And he told them (by approving what they were doing) they should listen to what they said. For if a man "speaks by the power of the holy ghost" it is the same as the "word of the Lord".
They went to Moses thus becoming dependent upon him. Instead of relying on the spirit of God, to teach them the truth of all things.
D&C 101 on the redemption of Zion tells us the same thing about the last days.
12 And in that day all who are found upon the watch-tower, or in other words, all mine Israel, shall be saved.Who are those who are on the watchtower? They are watchmen or as we also know "prophets", they are the ones that are saved. Those who have "put on thy strength" (2 Nephi 8:24).He is teaching us to all be a "prophet" or if female "prophetess". "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest" (Hebrews 8:11; Jeremiah 31:34). In Zion, knowing the Lord is only the beginning of Gods great work. Not an end.
Exceedingly many prophets
And there were exceedingly many prophets among us. And the people were a stiffnecked people, hard to understand. (Enos 1:22)Check the following references plus many many more. Or a lds.org search for "many prophets".
1 Nephi 1:4, Helaman 8:19, Ether 11:1, Ether 11:12, Ether 11:20
Lehi
I think Lehi is a great example of this. He lived in Jerusalem during a time of "many prophets" (1 Nephi 1:4). Than after he was rejected as a true messenger, the Lord asked him to leave with his family. His stewardship was his family and all those whom he ministered and they were willing to go with him to the promised land. Yet we know there were others such as Joshua. It may just be some prophets are rejected and flee before they are destroyed others are sometimes asked to stay and be "destroyed" with the city. Than Nephi preaches and adds his own record by the authority of the Holy Ghost. Why didn't it come from Lehi?
And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.
(1 Nephi 10:22)
Prophet, Seer, and Revelators
" it is not proper to speak commonly of the President of the Church, and [it is] incorrect to address him, as “Prophet,” “Seer,” or “Revelator,” though these exalted titles are specifically his, and belong also to each of his counselors, to each of the Twelve. … These are designations of spiritual powers and functions, and are of too sacred a character to be employed as common appellations." (Joseph Fielding Smith)
Do we do this today? I really like how he said they are titles. As oaks said, in last conference which i will paraphrase, it doesn't matter what rights someone asserts, they must qualify for their responsibilities. Just because you are in a specific office does not make you a prophet seer or revelator, and just because you have no office does not mean you cannot become one in your own sphere.
To illustrate this I will quote from Orson Pratt.
This failure to realize all the blessings and powers of the Priesthood does not apply to the elders and lesser Priesthood only; but it applies to the higher quorums, and comes home to ourselves, who are Apostles of Jesus Christ. We are presented before the Church, and sustained as prophets, seers and revelators, and we have received oftentimes the gift of prophecy and revelation, and have received many great and glorious gifts. But have we received the fullness of the blessings to which we are entitled? No, we have not. Who, among the Apostles have become seers, and enjoy all the gifts and powers pertaining to that calling? And those who are called to perform special missions in opening up dispensations of the Gospel to the children of men, as Joseph and others were called of the Lord, He endows more fully with these gifts; but this does not hinder others from enjoying similar gifts according to His promises, and according to our faithfulness. And I have thought the reason why we have not enjoyed these gifts more fully is, because we have not sought for them as diligently as we ought. I speak for one, I have not sought as diligently as I might have done. More than forty years have passed away since these promises were made. I have been blessed with some revelations and prophecies, and with dreams of things that have come to pass; but as to seeing things as a seer, and beholding heavenly things in open vision, I have not attained to these things. And who is to blame for this? Not the Lord; not brother Joseph—they are not to blame. And so it is with the promises made to you in your confirmations and endowments, and by the patriarchs, in your patriarchal blessings; we do not live up to our privileges as saints of God and elders of Israel; for though we receive many blessings that are promised to us, we do not receive them in their fullness, because we do not seek for them as diligently and faithfully as we should." (Orson Pratt, JD 25:145-146, http://jod.mrm.org/25/144)Prophet, Seer and Revelator Are Gifts
Just with all gifts, we can seek after them and we should. The offices of the priesthood are not the same as the gifts of the spirit.
16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.Prophecy of Joel
17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.
18 Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work mighty miracles; therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings. (Mosiah 8:16-18)
When Moroni appeared to Joseph smith he quoted Joel and said this prophecy would soon be fulfilled. (JSH 1:41) This is a Zion characteristic. Restrictive revelation or laws upon the people is the ante-type of Zion.
28 ¶And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:Arm of Flesh
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. (Joel 2:28-32)
President George Q. Cannon,
Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will NEVER fail us. When men and women depend upon GOD ALONE and trust in HIM ALONE, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. (DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).
Depend Upon No Man or Leader
Brigham Young said,
Also that which is holy is kept from us because we are unworthy (2 Nephi 32:6-7) and the greater portion of the word is not lawful to utter. The Book of Mormon contains the lesser part and the greater will be withheld to their condemnation if they don't believe the lesser part. (3 Nephi 26:8-11). If you want to KNOW that (greater portion), to ascend to that level of knowledge you must BECOME holy. For we must be precisely like Christ. And you won't be allowed to give it to those that are unholy.
Why dependence?
"Your spirit is better than mine," and Brigham continues "Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit" as the reasoning for doing so. When a group of people, lack ability to have the spirit to receive truth they cannot gain the knowledge or reliance upon God, and He alone, to be guided in ALL things. We are to govern ourselves with the "true independence of heaven".
So Why? Spiritual laziness. Why do the work others can do for you? Why learn to become like God and act independent above all other creatures when someone can just reveal it to us? Are we so afraid to be deceived that we won't experiment upon the word to learn "good from evil"?
Lessons Of Ezekial 14
Lets get back to Josephs quote. What is the message of Ezekiel 14. Its about idolatry.
Lesson 2: Prophets Can be Idols. Look at D&C 76 about those who are telestial in nature.
This is how I see what Joseph stated to be true. Our dependence upon Him causes our minds to be darkened (inability to receive truth, under condemnation). Or as Ezekiel 14 says "cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me"..."I will cut him off from the midst of my people". This is the antetype of Zion where we each know the Lord and each exist as self existent beings (See Lectures on Faith) We must turn to God and He alone. Ezekial informs us, that by going to the prophet to inquire of the Lord, we will be cast off. This is exactly what the children of Israel did with Moses. "They prayed that Moses would speak for them" what the Lord wanted to share instead of going to God with Moses upon the mount. They went to Moses to inquire of the Lord. They waited for Moses to reveal truth. Moses wanted them to sanctify themselves that they could behold His face, enter in his rest, which rest is eternal glory but they would not. (D&C 84:23-25) They lost sight of what devolved upon themselves.
Clarify: We receive true messengers but not follow them.
Joseph applied the LDS church to the "state of corruption of the Jewish church". This was from almost the beginning of the restoration. Two years after it was restored it was put under condemnation by the Lord (D&C 84) He gave this lecture at least twice to the relief society during his life
Verses 14 and 20 inform us "they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness."
Willingly Degrade Himself: Should we do something that is wrong?
I have talked about how we won't be blessed for doing something that is wrong even if our leaders tell us to do so in my prior post. President Tells you to Do Something Wrong, You will Be Blessed.
I want to bring up this part of it.
A Lay Member Oppposing in Church set the Example: Bishop Edward Bunker
It took an ordinary member Bishop Edward Bunker to set the process in order that eventually led to the denunciation as a church of the false doctrines of the Adam God theory taught by Brigham Young as president of the Church.
"Edward Bunker: a study in commitment and leadership" written by Gaylen K. Bunker which can be purchased on Amazon or read online for free here.
Edward Bunker's works while challenged at the time have become the accepted doctrine of the church.
Edward Bunker stood up to the established leadership in face of excommunication.
Edward Bunker attempted to live a Zion society.
Edward Bunker taught the true nature of God.
My personal belief is Edward Bunker stood by his works because he had (working) knowledge of their truths. His challengers and disciplinary council including the president of the church DID NOT on this doctrine
Edward Bunker submitted to censure and admonition of church leaders.
The other issue he was tried on was that of the Law of Adoption. Again Edward Bunker seemed to have knowledge about this.
The book suggests many changes in temple worship. Namely a lecture to be given at a certain place (veil) and ordinance of adoption was regularly performed.
In his excommunication council he made this statement "With due respect the Council and to all my brethren, I cannot, I dare not ignore the written word of God. I subscribe myself your friend and brother in the Gospel of Christ.""
So Edward Bunker set in motion what is now considered truth.
Our agency allows us to determine what we accept as doctrine. Our salvation depends upon our ability to accept true doctrine and throw away false doctrines. To determine the traditions of our fathers versus truth (pure doctrine). Your salvation depends upon your ability to clearly see what is true and what is not.
If all these presidents were allowed to teach false doctrines than was the other half as stated by Grant correct? If Grant said in the first instance that we should do something wrong if asked and still be blessed while Joseph condemned such practices should we believe the prophet can never lead us astray? No wonder why its dangerous to depend upon another man. To receive something as the word of God that was not.
Brigham Young said,
"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." - (Brigham Young, JD 1:312, Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853,)Did you read that? If we do depend on anyone, including a leader, to give us the knowledge that is needed for us to be saved we will not be capable of entering into the celestial glory. If we want them to give us the information we will be damned. If we have this mind-sight which I have heard "if it was important for my salvation they would say it in General Conference", "I will wait for someone else to reveal it" that causes us dependence upon others. Besides not everything is said is the will of the Lord. We should not depend upon "another of [our] poor, weak, fellow mortals".
Also that which is holy is kept from us because we are unworthy (2 Nephi 32:6-7) and the greater portion of the word is not lawful to utter. The Book of Mormon contains the lesser part and the greater will be withheld to their condemnation if they don't believe the lesser part. (3 Nephi 26:8-11). If you want to KNOW that (greater portion), to ascend to that level of knowledge you must BECOME holy. For we must be precisely like Christ. And you won't be allowed to give it to those that are unholy.
Why dependence?
"Your spirit is better than mine," and Brigham continues "Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit" as the reasoning for doing so. When a group of people, lack ability to have the spirit to receive truth they cannot gain the knowledge or reliance upon God, and He alone, to be guided in ALL things. We are to govern ourselves with the "true independence of heaven".
So Why? Spiritual laziness. Why do the work others can do for you? Why learn to become like God and act independent above all other creatures when someone can just reveal it to us? Are we so afraid to be deceived that we won't experiment upon the word to learn "good from evil"?
What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.
Brother Joseph W. Young remarked this morning that he wished the people to receive the word of the Lord through his servants, be dictated by them, and have no will of their own. I would express it in this wise: God has placed within us a will, and we should be satisfied to have it controlled by the will of the Almighty. Let the human will be indomitable for right....
Let all persons be fervent in prayer, until they know the things of God for themselves and become certain that they are walking in the path that leads to everlasting life; then will envy, the child of ignorance, vanish, and there will be no disposition in any man to place himself above another; for such a feeling meets no countenance in the order of heaven. Jesus Christ never wanted to be different from his father: they were and are one. If a people are led by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and they are cognizant of the fact through their faithfulness, there is no fear but they will be one in Christ Jesus, and see eye to eye.So Brigham Young warns us that a leader can lead us to utter destruction. Why say that if it were not possible?
—Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150, 12 January 1862. off-site
Lessons Of Ezekial 14
Lets get back to Josephs quote. What is the message of Ezekiel 14. Its about idolatry.
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;Lesson 1: If we set up idols in our heart, and cometh to the prophet, the Lord will give us according to our idols. He will allow us to stay blind and ignorant.
Lesson 2: Prophets Can be Idols. Look at D&C 76 about those who are telestial in nature.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; [Some of Joseph...](D&C 76:100)They never learn to deliver their own souls. So they become "Some of" another. They depend upon another to save them, when Christ is the keeper of the Gate and employeth no Servant there (2 Nephi 9). Faith in God, not Man. (Mark 11:22) Even some proclaim to be "Some of Christ" but know him not.
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, andhonoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.Lesson 3: "turn away your faces from all your abominations." (vs 6)
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:8-9; Cross reference 2 Nephi 28:14 about our day)
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:Lesson 4: "Leaders" can become idols when we rely upon them or we put their word above the revelations of God dictated to us personally even if it differs.
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him asign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
This is how I see what Joseph stated to be true. Our dependence upon Him causes our minds to be darkened (inability to receive truth, under condemnation). Or as Ezekiel 14 says "cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me"..."I will cut him off from the midst of my people". This is the antetype of Zion where we each know the Lord and each exist as self existent beings (See Lectures on Faith) We must turn to God and He alone. Ezekial informs us, that by going to the prophet to inquire of the Lord, we will be cast off. This is exactly what the children of Israel did with Moses. "They prayed that Moses would speak for them" what the Lord wanted to share instead of going to God with Moses upon the mount. They went to Moses to inquire of the Lord. They waited for Moses to reveal truth. Moses wanted them to sanctify themselves that they could behold His face, enter in his rest, which rest is eternal glory but they would not. (D&C 84:23-25) They lost sight of what devolved upon themselves.
Clarify: We receive true messengers but not follow them.
Joseph applied the LDS church to the "state of corruption of the Jewish church". This was from almost the beginning of the restoration. Two years after it was restored it was put under condemnation by the Lord (D&C 84) He gave this lecture at least twice to the relief society during his life
Verses 14 and 20 inform us "they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness."
Willingly Degrade Himself: Should we do something that is wrong?
I have talked about how we won't be blessed for doing something that is wrong even if our leaders tell us to do so in my prior post. President Tells you to Do Something Wrong, You will Be Blessed.
I want to bring up this part of it.
The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)Scriptures are our Measuring Stick
It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204. (Italics in original.))We learn that Aaron was allowed to build a golden idle and got those who were with him to worship it. This cursed (damned) the people to remain in the wilderness for 40 years along with other things (looking to Moses for answers). We have the example of the two prophets in 1 kings, one listened to the other, who lied to him, and lost his soul. The Lord told the first prophet not to do something, the second came and told him it was the Lords will to do it that it was ok because he was also a prophet (1 Kings 13) Than we have the example of Brigham Young teaching the Adam God theory as doctrine for the church, incorporating it into the endowments of the temple which were not entirely removed until the early 1900's. Which now is denounced as false doctrine.
A Lay Member Oppposing in Church set the Example: Bishop Edward Bunker
It took an ordinary member Bishop Edward Bunker to set the process in order that eventually led to the denunciation as a church of the false doctrines of the Adam God theory taught by Brigham Young as president of the Church.
"Edward Bunker: a study in commitment and leadership" written by Gaylen K. Bunker which can be purchased on Amazon or read online for free here.
"In addition to the Stake Leadership, Wilford Woodruff, President of the Church and his first counselor George Q. Cannon, had traveled from Salt Lake to St. George specifically for the court and were in attendance."...
"He was warned that his course was dangerous, could lead to darkness, and possibly loss of church membership." (Ch 19)A few points
Edward Bunker's works while challenged at the time have become the accepted doctrine of the church.
Edward Bunker stood up to the established leadership in face of excommunication.
Edward Bunker attempted to live a Zion society.
Edward Bunker taught the true nature of God.
My personal belief is Edward Bunker stood by his works because he had (working) knowledge of their truths. His challengers and disciplinary council including the president of the church DID NOT on this doctrine
Edward Bunker submitted to censure and admonition of church leaders.
The other issue he was tried on was that of the Law of Adoption. Again Edward Bunker seemed to have knowledge about this.
The book suggests many changes in temple worship. Namely a lecture to be given at a certain place (veil) and ordinance of adoption was regularly performed.
In his excommunication council he made this statement "With due respect the Council and to all my brethren, I cannot, I dare not ignore the written word of God. I subscribe myself your friend and brother in the Gospel of Christ.""
So Edward Bunker set in motion what is now considered truth.
We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.
(Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Own Liahona," Ensign (November 1976), 77. here)
Our agency allows us to determine what we accept as doctrine. Our salvation depends upon our ability to accept true doctrine and throw away false doctrines. To determine the traditions of our fathers versus truth (pure doctrine). Your salvation depends upon your ability to clearly see what is true and what is not.
If all these presidents were allowed to teach false doctrines than was the other half as stated by Grant correct? If Grant said in the first instance that we should do something wrong if asked and still be blessed while Joseph condemned such practices should we believe the prophet can never lead us astray? No wonder why its dangerous to depend upon another man. To receive something as the word of God that was not.
Let me quote another president.
Joseph said you can only elevate those on lower ground. Is it possible for a "prophet" to teach truth's they don't yet understand? Can you be a prophet and not understand the nature of God? Is it possible for them to raise you up if they themselves are not yet in a position to comprehend heaven and have entered into His presence? We know Joseph was from D&C 76. Can you have the title of prophet when you have not received the Testimony of Jesus yet? Which only those who have a correct idea of Gods's perfections, attributes and Character can receive?
This consists with "gazing into heaven" (TPJS, p. 324; cf. HC 6:50) for five minutes. Until than they will continue to error no matter what office they hold. And all who listen will continue to error until they learn to follow the Holy Ghost in all things (2 Nephi 32:1-5, 2 Nephi 28:14).
Just Perhaps? You Tell Me.
If one can hold any office and not yet be in a spiritual position to experience many of the spiritual gifts than could this explain why such false doctrines, that some believe were required for exaltation, while others believe they will be damned for them, are taught?
Does this quote by Joseph partially explain the WHY on this dilemma?
"Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this." (TPJS p 160)
I quoted Brigham Young in my post here as president of the Church. Does this explain the why?
...I told the people that if they would not believe
the revelations that God had given,
He would suffer the devil to give revelations
that they -- priest and people -- would follow
after. Have I seen this fulfilled? I have.
I told the people that as true as God lived,Again we have another decision. Why is it that both "priest and people" will believe these false teachings? Are these teachings among us today? How does this go along with "being led astray"? Are not false teachings being "led astray"? Adam-God Theory? De-cannonization of the Lectures on Faith by a committee without the members consent or vote when it was voted in by common consent as doctrine by the entire church? (See my post Changing The Commandments of God: Lectures on Faith)
if they would not have truth,
they would have error sent unto them
and they would believe it."
-- Brigham Young
For Brigham Young, conformity is the danger signal: “I am not a stereotyped Latter-day Saint,” he said, “and do not believe in the doctrine. . . . Away with stereotyped ‘Mormons’!” When, as a boy, he was asked by his father to sign a temperance pledge, he resolutely refused. Youth rebelling against respectability? No, honesty resisting social pressure and hypocrisy. Approaching Zion, transcript – Hugh NibleySo the question is why?
Joseph said you can only elevate those on lower ground. Is it possible for a "prophet" to teach truth's they don't yet understand? Can you be a prophet and not understand the nature of God? Is it possible for them to raise you up if they themselves are not yet in a position to comprehend heaven and have entered into His presence? We know Joseph was from D&C 76. Can you have the title of prophet when you have not received the Testimony of Jesus yet? Which only those who have a correct idea of Gods's perfections, attributes and Character can receive?
No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a prophet,"
(DHC 3: 389)
Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this.Joseph Fielding Smith (editor), Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 160We are all to be prophets, to gain the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy. ALL who receive this testimony, which is the testimony Jesus has of YOU (not you of Him) which is declared to You from Him out of the heavens, are prophets.
This consists with "gazing into heaven" (TPJS, p. 324; cf. HC 6:50) for five minutes. Until than they will continue to error no matter what office they hold. And all who listen will continue to error until they learn to follow the Holy Ghost in all things (2 Nephi 32:1-5, 2 Nephi 28:14).
Just Perhaps? You Tell Me.
If one can hold any office and not yet be in a spiritual position to experience many of the spiritual gifts than could this explain why such false doctrines, that some believe were required for exaltation, while others believe they will be damned for them, are taught?
Does this quote by Joseph partially explain the WHY on this dilemma?
"Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this." (TPJS p 160)
I quoted Brigham Young in my post here as president of the Church. Does this explain the why?
"that perhaps I then may hold communion with the Lord, as did Moses. I am not now in that position...If I am faithful until I am eighty years of age, perhaps the Lord will appear to me and personally dictate me in the management of his Church and people." (Journal of Discourses, 7:243. Brigham Young, September 1, 1859, here)
"We have not seen the person of the Father, neither have we seen that of the Son;" (Journal of Discourses 11:42. Brigham Young, January 8, 1865, here)Perhaps that is why the Lord warned us.
91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses— 92 Behold, here is wisdom; (D&C 107:91-92)